Yes, I see why one would wonder why anyone would stick to something that at its base seems to reject them. Hence my struggle.

I must respectfully disagree that the hardline or extremist churches are any closer to the true base of their teaching. Again, they have taken narrow readings to justify their prejudices and their desire to control, frequently ignoring completely calls to justice and help for the poor, etc. Many times, sub-groups w/in these churches find it convenient to slap a label on the part of teachings they wish to ignore, like calling really helping the poor, really trying to help w/ giving them tools to survive and improve something like 'Liberal', do-gooder, etc.

I admit, I frequently get annoyed w/ these goody,goody types and sometimes mis-directed attempts at good. My dealings w/ fairly poor folk as a delivery driver and as a former secondary schoolteacher, showed me the good and bad of the poor, and the help religion could offer. This strikes me as a definite good. Again, this deepens for me anyway, my struggle w/ religion.

There are days I think it's all primative BS, and ? completely if souls exist. BTW, my view on souls is at odds w/ prevailing viewof any church, but am running out of timre and space and energy to explain. But thanks, MX, for your intelligent and learned AND responsible,polite responses. They have made me think.
 
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Andrew1999, if it helps, here are some of the questions I asked myself and reasons that brought me from a "sort of" believing catholic to a passionate non-believer:

I started asking what it was like to be in heaven worshipping god and being happy for eternity - does it mean that I have to keep stroking god's ego for eternity? What does being eternally happy mean? To be a zombie and mesmerized by the greatness of this dictator and grovel at his feet (does he have feet)? Can I still enjoy the pleasure of eating food? The pleasure of listening to music? The appreciation of sex? Do I still have bodily functions such as having to shit and pee? Can I enjoy the process of sleeping or do we not have to sleep ever again? If none of these apply, the whole essence of who I am is no longer true or unique. Every "soul" in heaven would be like robots only there to serve a low self esteem dictator who needs his ass brown-nosed. Speaking of which, does god have an asshole and does he have to shit as well? Also, do we get to become "young" again if we die at 100? If we are eternally happy all the time, won't we get bored or would we really recognize that we are indeed happy without the normal ups and downs of earthly living? Can we have bad thoughts once in heaven? That is can you actually be thrown out of heaven because of this, or are we such zombies that we can't think for ourselves anymore? Childhood indoctrination never addresses these quandaries because they can never be answered. Of course if there is any explanation at all, we are subjected to the inane ultimate cop-out - "god works in mysterious ways".

It's been drummed into our heads that religious organizations do more good than harm to society. I keep thinking of what good that they do that a non-religious non-profit organization cannot do. To date, I can't think of any, and if you can, let me know. I soon realized that doing good with strings attached is not as moral as doing good just for the sake of being kind to your fellow man, and no other reason. If you do good because it is what some dictator tells you to do with the promise of a reward, and not doing good would result in punishment, then you are just a robot slave and selfish, not really moral.

When I look at the "good" that religious organizations do in the Third world I often think of the price the people have to pay in order to receive this aid. Are they better off when they are doomed to a life of servitude to an organization that is intent on keeping them in their present state, spreading lies about birth control, prohibiting women's reproductive decisions? This will guarantee them generation after generation of lifelong indentured service to such organizations.

When I look at how divided this country has become, that is, 1/2 Republican, 1/2 Democrat, I can't help but think that religious influence has become such a dangerous force to our freedoms. When you sit in a church (assuming a mainstream one, and not a gay congregation), you can be assured that the majority of those sitting with you are against you and feel that you are an abomination in the eyes of god. How disheartening is that? And the fact that you continue to attend these mainstream churches only serve to legitimize them and keep them alive. Recently, there was a news report about how the local churches in my state are trying to get their congregations to donate to defeat the Referendum on gay marriage which is coming up for a vote this Fall. The legislature had already approved gay marriage but the news reported that the majority of the signatures obtained to force this bill to a popular vote in a referendum was garnered exclusively from churches and paid signature gatherers.

This reverence for religion and religious beliefs is the main reason how the catholic church was able to almost get away with its heinous crime of protecting child abusers. In any other circumstance, the organization responsible would have been shut down and the ring leader imprisoned for life. The power of this organization is kept alive by its followers and nothing else and their subdued outrage. In any other circumstance, these followers would have wanted such organizations to be dismantled but because it is operating under the guise of religion, they turn a blind eye, and excusing it under the banner of "one bad apple, does not spoil the whole barrel."

When I look at what's happening in the Middle East I'm reminded daily how beliefs are so soberingly dangerous. Sectarian annihilation all in the name of not being able to agree on the interpretation of the koran, and martyrs doing what they do for the sake of being rewarded with 72 virgins which many scholars say is a mistranslation of "white raisins". Really? Killing oneself for the reward of 72 raisins? WTF!

The arrogance of religion - if most all religions claim that they are the true way and everyone else is wrong, then I am inclined to think that all of them are fictitious and only invented by man to explain the yet unexplained and his arrogance of wanting to live forever after death . Religion is the perfect vehicle to control populations with reward for this arrogance, something that can never be proven. How convenient. Truth should NOT and would NOT respect geo-political borders.

The problem of evil - why does god allow such suffering and misery on earth? The timeless ponderings of Epicurus still apply today - "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Okay, I don't doubt that there are many good things that are said in these so called holy books, but honestly, I feel that we should give ourselves more credit that we have some innate morality. Some scientists feel that these moralities, eg. altruism, can be explained by Darwinism, which seems plausible. If we can cherry pick and reject what seems immoral in these books, or have to spin these immoralities to fit our sense of morality, then these books are useless. We are better than the Bronze Aged goatherders who wrote them. You can get much more consistent moralities from ancient philosophers than holy books that condone slavery, killing, and violence against one another.

Of all people, gays should be the first to question the above motivations and reject their childhood indoctrination into these beliefs/religions. The very religious organizations that they support, either monetarily, or by attendance, only serve to propagate their ability to continue spewing out these hateful diatribes and crusade against gay people. We can be part of the solution, not enablers to the status quo of these organizations.
 
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Mxboots, as a former christian I can answer the questions posed in your first paragraph. Once we would ascend to heaven, we would be above human needs and experiences like happiness, shitting, boredom, etc. We would have no need or desire to listen to music, eat food, have sex, or sleep. Of course this is all BS, but that is what they would say to your queries.
Andrew, it seems to me, from reading your posts, that you are more spiritual than you are religious.

For a long time I struggled with my beliefs and who I was as a person. Eventually I came to the realization, that religion is nothing more than control of the weak and needy. The reason religious groups "aid" the poor so much is they are vulerable. The poor and needy cannot refuse the help. Once the religious group has their foot in the door they can swoop in the plant their seeds of control.
 
Wow! I feel blessed w/ an abundance of ponder fodder. Now I know what the 1" diameter snake that ate the 4" diameter prey felt like! Sincere thanks for this. It's more than my brain can process right now, but I promise to think and respond. I do like the Epicurus quote, MX, the direct flow of thought, understand the logic, think it's powerful in its simplicity, tho have issues w/ end result. I'm seriously impressed w/you both, MX & bindiboi. Thanks,A
 
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When entering into a debate and discussion like this, to just say, "Fuck religion!" does nothing. As much as I can agree to the sentiment, more needs and should be said.
 
I don't mind the "fuck religion" once in a while. To the point.. :hahahahha:
 
Hey mx&b.: I'm POed as everything I've written has been timed out once again and lost. How the F do you get so much written, mx? Am I a moron & missing something simple to enable me to complete a d**n thought? As a pirate says "Arrgh!" Here goes a third try. Allow me to finish up w/ thoughts on the soul, w/ what is a big part, but not all of my thinking on the nature of the soul. As I've said, I don't accept the conventional vision of the soul and heaven. I read somewhere in the Bible that Hell is separation from God. This meshes w/ what I've thought since childhood, which is that the "soul", spark, or whatever it is that separates life from , well death, mud what have you, is an animating "thing" from God. At death, this "soul" re-unites w/ God. It doesn't move back into a heavnly version of it's life on Earth. It was on loan from God, reunites / God & God does whatever God does w/ it. I suppose this means all life has a "holy spark". It would be logical.

In short, Hell would be your "soul" or "spark of life" remaining apart from God, therefore,NOT a part, or uniting w/ God. This implies nothing about the nature of heaven. If one looks at the descriptions of heaven, most are vague. Even Jesus saying "many rooms in my fathers house" is easily interpreted in a variety of ways, but could also describe a cellular uniting w/ God. This could be said to be a stretching of literal reading. LOL.
 
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I also marvel at the perversions religious zealotry and literalism creates. Like God is pro war. Or wants women to have long hair, wear long skirts, or even wear burkas. I'm always astounded at those who willfully confuse their culture w/ their religion, thereby trying to give a "God" stamp of approval for stupid crap like the above. It has made it difficult to sit in church, Bible study or Sunday school. Yes, I frequently stirred up the S**T in the past, but age has shut me up a bit, holding back & hoping my words will therefore have more weight.

More soon, guys. Thanks for this disscussion and excusing my slowness.
 
I too have laughed at such trivialities. If there is a god, he created us naked. Do you really think he gives a fuck what we ware? He would have more important things on his mind than little Cindy Lou Mohammad's headdress. Of course I don't believe in any of it, so I get a kick out of what silly things people do for the sake of their religions.
 
Good to hear your witty response, buddy. I had a bunch more in my head that I wanted to say, but having to post twice got me distracted and POed, which caused a case of "brain dumping", which led to empty headedness. I'll put up some more as soon as I get my head organized! LOL!

Isn't it amazing the silly and as you say, trivial crap that some make sooo important? I remember listening to someone defend making women not cut their hair and wear long dresses, by listing three or less verses as the reason. When someone said that made it look like whoever wanted to keep women in this position really went Bible verse shopping, that that outlook was excessivley legalistic, which Jesus was adamantly against, well, this person could do nothing but repeat the same crap he'd said earlier.
 
Ponderings of what heaven and hell are like are just that - fantasies about what we think would be paradise, and what would be ultimate punishment. Nothing more than wishful thinking of better things to come. Earthly experiences applied to the unverifiable, nothing more, nothing less. It's reassuring to think that we can exist forever at some conscious level, but the reality is that you will only live on through memories of future generations and your DNA transmitted to offspring whether personally or vicariously through your siblings. Perhaps it's comforting for some to have this thought of immortality, but when you factor in the threat of punishment, surely your enjoyment of life on earth would be somewhat marred by worry and that the expectation of something better, only limits one's appreciation of the only life we will ever experience. The problem with using ethereal words like "soul" is that it is so nebulous that it can mean unlimited things to different people. Your definition is what you want it to be, and we are no closer to what the true meaning will ever be, because, like religions claiming they are the true way, I am inclined to think that they are all personal musings, and wishful thinking.
 
Ah yes, compelling argument. However, though I tend to agree with what you say mx, WE cannot know that there is nothing anymore than believers can know that there IS something. And while I tend to side with the more atheistic side of agnosticism, I still hold on the idea that just maybe there is something we cannot explain. That to me is the truly most logical thought process.
 
OMG his mother should have aborted him. But it is never to late take him out.
 
You are so correct. What peace we would have without religion!
 
Ah yes, compelling argument. However, though I tend to agree with what you say mx, WE cannot know that there is nothing anymore than believers can know that there IS something. And while I tend to side with the more atheistic side of agnosticism, I still hold on the idea that just maybe there is something we cannot explain. That to me is the truly most logical thought process.

I'm with bindiboi on this one - it seems unlikely that God exists, but how can we know that he/she/it doesn't? There's no way I can believe in the details of the Christian or any other religion, but I'm open to the possibility that they are groping towards something that we can't (yet?) visualise but that does exist and that we could call 'God'.
As for 'what peace we would have without religion', sadly the evidence seems to be against that. Yes, religion (or rather people's use of religion) has caused countless killings, horrors, atrocities - but so have Nazism, communism, and militant atheism. And in my own life I've wondered and been inspired by the beauty of buildings and artworks made in the name of religion, and seen the steadfast support that those with a certain form of releigious faith can give - in fact my best fried would probably not be alive without that. So in my own life I've experienced and observed more good than harm from religion - though I know I've been lucky, it's not like that for everyone.
I think one of the scribes who wrote the Bible almost got it right, shame he was maybe a bit dyslexic and jumbled his words - and therefore didn't quite write 'Man created God in his/her own image'.
It's no religion that's good or bad, it's people.
 
I'm with bindiboi on this one - it seems unlikely that God exists, but how can we know that he/she/it doesn't? There's no way I can believe in the details of the Christian or any other religion, but I'm open to the possibility that they are groping towards something that we can't (yet?) visualise but that does exist and that we could call 'God'.
As for 'what peace we would have without religion', sadly the evidence seems to be against that. Yes, religion (or rather people's use of religion) has caused countless killings, horrors, atrocities - but so have Nazism, communism, and militant atheism. And in my own life I've wondered and been inspired by the beauty of buildings and artworks made in the name of religion, and seen the steadfast support that those with a certain form of releigious faith can give - in fact my best fried would probably not be alive without that. So in my own life I've experienced and observed more good than harm from religion - though I know I've been lucky, it's not like that for everyone.
I think one of the scribes who wrote the Bible almost got it right, shame he was maybe a bit dyslexic and jumbled his words - and therefore didn't quite write 'Man created God in his/her own image'.
It's no religion that's good or bad, it's people.

True to the core as religion is surely invented by man, and man definitely had used it as a vehicle to justify doing bad things like sanctioning killing for working on the sabbath, disobeying parents, killing gay people, enslaving his fellow man, etc etc. Just because some people find solace in belief, it doesn't make it true either. I disagree that the scribes were dyslexic, those decrees were definitely intentional to serve bronze aged ethics.
 
I disagree that the scribes were dyslexic, those decrees were definitely intentional to serve bronze aged ethics.

Um, I wasn't being entirely serious there!
 
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