Life, Death and Entropy

In this post I will try to explain my view on life and death read on if you dare it's grim and complicated yet I am sure some of you will find it fascinating.

I will use generalizations in order to make this post on a complex subject shorter and more easy to grasp, this is not meant to be a scientific article after all.

Here we go...

Everything in our universe including all living things are subject to entropy, a thermodynamic property that means everything around us is going from order to chaos & decay: All objects wear out, organisms die, the universe is cooling down - there is no escape.

Entropy always increases and this gives us the illusion of time. The passage of time is just an illusion.

Increasing entropy is a measure of disorder in an aging system (humans) where death is the ultimate and maximum disorder.

This means that once dead you will have reached your maximum entropy and this process will be irreversible. We are all going to melt.

But why are we born and live our stupid lives in the first place?

All living organisms avoid decay and preserve their internal order by taking from their surroundings free energy (Gibbs free energy) in the form of nutrients or sunlight, and returning to their surroundings an equal amount of energy as heat and entropy.

Evolution & natural selection explores possible paths to level differences in energy densities and so increase entropy most rapidly. Thus, an organism serves as an energy transfer mechanism, and beneficial mutations (DNA changes) allow successive organisms (your children) to transfer more energy within their environment.

The order produced within our cells as they grow and divide is more than compensated for by the disorder they create in their surroundings in the course of growth and division.

The end result is that our bodies act as heat machines bring more entropy to the universe and we push it faster and faster towards its ultimate goal- maximum entropy of the universe.

In conclusion the phenomenon of life, including its origin and evolution, as well as human cultural evolution, has its basis in thermodynamics.

By becoming more technologically advanced we bring more entropy to the universe by releasing more heat.

We are burning more and more fossil fuels, moving faster etc.

All our suffering and struggle is meaningless as our bodies are simply small heat engines in the grand scale of things.

But we shouldn't smirk at the meaningless of our lives.

As Nietzsche put it "It is only up to us to overcome this what we call the tragedy of mortal life, and re-write our roles in the cosmic play. While the invisible strings of statistics will always be pulling our actions in the large scale, it can never put the lines in our mouths. That we must do ourselves."


My awesome sources:
[SUB]^ Lisa Zyga (2008-08-11). "Evolution as Described by the Second Law of Thermodynamics"
^ "Information Theory and Evolution" (2003) by chemist John Avery[/SUB]

Firstly, This is a very intriguing theory. There are things that have happened in my life that force me to accept that there is a world or reality beyond the physical world. However, I cannot offer any physical evidence of my experiences so my only choice for now is to empirically and concisevely evaluate your theory.

As I understand entropy, and correct me if I am wrong, entropy is not exacly a measure of how chaotic a system is, but rather how energy within a closed system is distributed within that system. If energy tends to be spread out evenly across a closed system then we can say that the bigger the system, the more energy you will have to put in the system to make molecules move fast enough to create heat. In my view, entropy ultimately leads to order rather than chaos.

Think about what you said about the ultimate end of the universe which is predicted to become an icy void deplited of matter. A place like that is not exacly chaotic (in theormodynamics, chaos would be molecules moving around at incredible speed which leads to high temperature). As I understand the big freeze theory, stars will keep moving far away from each other and there will be a point where space will be so huge (a closed system) that almost no heat will be generated. Keep in mind that cold does not really exist. Rather cold is the absense of heat.Since cold means molecules are moving more slowly than I tend to think that is less chaotic system.

Moving on to humanity's role in existence. Assuming your theory is correct, humanity's print on the universe is negligible. Even if we manage to break the light speed, it will take himanity centuries to even map our galaxy and spread out entropy around. Considering there are stars out there that can produce enormous heat, humanity seems so ridiculously small in the grand design. What I am trying to say is that humanity's influence on the universe is and will very likely be so small that it does not make sense for the evolutinary process to create us.

I also tend to disagree with you on your view of our technology and its heat emission. Sure, we are burning fossil fuel like never before, but we already know there are better ways to produce energy that wont create so much heat and pollution. If creation of heat is the ultimate goal, then the universe would manifest itself in ways where almost evrything we do would create enormous quantities of heat. Now, even sustainable sources of energy will create some heat, but no where near the amount of heat we produce now. Dpenedency on oil is not an unavoidable fate but rather stupidity.


Regardless of our true porpuse in the grand scale of things, I absolutelly agree with Nietzsche. I hate when people say stuff like "things are what they are and u might as well get used to it." We are the only ones who can determine our fate. I never cared for diterminism because it oversimplifies the human condition. I am a transhumanist so I believe our main goal is to find ways to go beyond our limitations. My utopia is a world where humanity constantly challanges its precepts using technology, science, art, medicine, philosophy and creativity. My perfect world is one where we are the masters of our own destinity and are willing to go beyond what we perceive to be true. A world where we respect each other's differences because we know diversity is the law of the universe.

Sometime ago you asked me what I did not like about the world. Now I just told you my vision of utopia....can you see how the world we live in is a hellish dystopia in my eyes?


I am not a scientist and it gas been afes since I saw a physics book so I am sorry if I said something off the wall.

New Yorker said:

My perfect world is one where we are the masters of our own destinity and are willing to go beyond what we perceive to be true. A world where we respect each other's differences because we know diversity is the law of the universe.

Sometime ago you asked me what I did not like about the world. Now I just told you my vision of utopia....can you see how the world we live in is a hellish dystopia in my eyes?

Click to expand...

I get you point yeah, masters of our own destinty - I like!

Ludwig Boltzmann figured out the entropy formula for death: S = k . log W
...even had it engraved on his tombstone.
The funny thing is the formula can be worked backwards as well, which means, in theory, things can also entropy backwards in time.

stickitinmyabs said:

The funny thing is the formula can be worked backwards as well, which means, in theory, things can also entropy backwards in time.

Click to expand...

Really? Any links to credible sources please?

Meatpie said:

Really? Any links to credible sources please?

Click to expand...

Can't remember the physicist's name...wanted to post a link to him yesterday. I'll run across his work again someday though, and will update here. I'm always reading about this kind of stuff.

putting it simply everything is trying to attain a state of simplicity which i guess = decay , people ,planets the universe will degrade to the pont where it can not degrade any further . I agree with both points of view up to a point but I think it is even simpler though some find entropy a difficult concept . it is happening around us all the time and started from the moment the universe came into existance . But that is another subjest all together.
A great thread , thanks , pity there are not more responses

ukon said:

putting it simply everything is trying to attain a state of simplicity which i guess = decay , people ,planets the universe will degrade to the pont where it can not degrade any further .

Click to expand...

The universe started simple, all fundamental forces were one, particles and then complex molecules came later. But what happened before no one knows and I don't believe we will ever know.

ukon said:

pity there are not more responses

Click to expand...

There are no responses because most people don't understand entropy.

You really need a powerful brain for such concepts.

I am convinced the passage of time is just an illusion.

It was absolutely hard to understand at first, I struggled, I refused to accept.

Sometimes it takes months for the idea to completely sink in but once you start to accept it you'll be at peace with the universe and with your own death & destruction.

We should embrace our deaths, the universe is mortal after all, your death is the only escape.

How the universe will end is another interesting subject there is still no agreement in the scientific community.

Most believe that with time the universe will become unbearable - temperature near absolute zero, no source of energy, no light...pitch black everywhere...everything static no movement.

Even if you theoratically manage to exist in such universe there will be nothing to see and time will have completely lost it's meaning, millions of years will pass and there another million and nothing will change.

Eternal sleep.

Meatpie said:

There are no responses because most people don't understand entropy.

Click to expand...

That's true, and most of the metaphors used (measure of disorder and such) are highly misleading at best, and sometimes just plain wrong.
For a very good popular science book on the subject see The Fabric of the Cosmos, by Brian Greene. He explains things thoroughly without math.

Meatpie said:

I am convinced the passage of time is just an illusion. It was absolutely hard to understand at first, I struggled, I refused to accept.

Click to expand...

I'd very much like to hear why you became convinced of this. I know you're genuinely interested in things like this, as I am, and would appreciate to hear your arguments. I know many scientists have the same view, but I have not heard convincing arguments yet (that's a politically correct way of saying I don't believe it at all but can't put up much of a fight either).

Meatpie said:

We should embrace our deaths, the universe is mortal after all, your death is the only escape.

Click to expand...

I'm very grateful life is finite, and that whatever happens one day it will all be over for good.

PiercedChest said:

I'd very much like to hear why you became convinced of this. I know you're genuinely interested in things like this, as I am, and would appreciate to hear your arguments.

Click to expand...

This subject is still hotly debated and is known among the scientific community as the the arrow-of-time dilemma.

It arises from the tension between the apparent reversibility of the fundamental laws of physics (QUANTUM MECHANICS but putting aside collapse of the wave function for the moment) and the obvious irreversibility of the macroscopic world. The latter is manifested by the growth of entropy with time, as codified in the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

In quantum mechanics there is no arrow of time, this is my main argument.

So a solution to this dilemma would be an explanation of how reversible laws on small scales can give rise to irreversible behavior on large scales.

I don't have an explanation for that.

For those of you unfamiliar with the CONCEPT of Entropy or would rather see visual examples explained I would recommend the following Prof Brian Cox “Wonders of the Solar System” a 5 part TV series (sorry can’t remember which episode but think it was the first or second) in which he uses a sand castle as the example , He also explains the “Arrow of Time” which is mentioned in some of the above posts . Prof Jim Al-Khalili “Order and Disorder” also very good .
It is the CONCEPT that is important to grasp, the science behind it although at times fascinating can get really technical and is secondary for me because of major and minor differences in opposing points of view ( don’t get me wrong they are extremely important if we are to try to fully understand the methodology of Entropy but these arguments tend to dull the senses for those who just want to get a grip on the CONCEPT ).
It would be great if more people responded if even only to say that they do or do not understand it OR do or do not care OR have something that they think will sound naïve- some of the smartest question can come from those who consider themselves uninformed. Plus I and others would get an idea as to the general feeling in this community regarding this subject.
I would like to make a few comments in response to statements from some of the previous posts.
“You really need a powerful brain for such concepts” by Meatpie. I tend to think Open mind rather than powerful brain but possibly we are saying the same thing differently.
“I am convinced the passage of time is just an illusion.” By Meatpie . Wow a real difficult one because philosophically this certainly would keep people busy debating but to me the word illusion is incongruous and I think that time although hard to scientifically describe is so fundamental to everything , I think Einstein would also have problems with this but keeping it simple we can all relate to time Daytime, Nighttime, what time is it, passage of time etc etc , if it is an illusion our brains are seriously out of whack, look in the mirror in 10 years time is there any difference .
“We should embrace our deaths, the universe is mortal after all, your death is the only escape.” By Meatpie . Well nitpicking I guess but I think Accept rather than Embrace , just a personal choice of words really.
I think this has just about burn out my brain for the TIME being, so will leave it there for now
Come on people have your say .

I liked your Day & Night example.

When all the stars die out and the universe goes completely pitch black, temperature close to absolutely zero our current concept of time passing will lose it's meaning as there will be absolutely no events to signify that a second has passed...or an hour or a million years.

Scary, isn't it.

Meatpie wrote

When all the stars die out and the universe goes completely pitch black, temperature close to absolutely zero our current concept of time passing will lose it's meaning as there will be absolutely no events to signify that a second has passed...or an hour or a million years.

Scary, isn't it.

Click to expand...

very well writen and simple to understand, without events time is immeasureable ie from one event to the next (from sunrise to sunrise divided by the dark and light periods and further divided for lots of reasons) . I dont see it as scary as none of us will be around rather I find it fascinating . Time of course in an integral part of Life,Death and Entropy . Life from the time out heart starts until it stops , Death from the last heartbeat, Entropy is possibly Timeless.
I watched a TV series a few years back simply called "Time" by Michio Kaku from memory it was four parts and very well done I especially liked his example of how people of different ages percieve or experience time ( young people ,middle aged and Old folks ) also how an individual percieves time under certain situations .
Time is relevant to all of us until the end.